Ing. Karol Dubovan

"Mr. Juklo himself also created such a manual, or how to do it... how prudently, for example, to go out and meet... and to undergo interrogations afterwards. Maybe try to tell us something about it if you have such information. Yes, of course. It was created... I don't know if Vladko Juklo did it, we didn't ask, but a manual was created on how to behave during interrogations... so that a person, if he knew, knew how to behave... he didn't get drunk on a roll, I would say... and as soon as someone smiled, that it was possible to start a sincere dialogue with him, from which nothing bad could happen. We were already very cautious and during these meetings it was recommended not to talk rather than to be drawn into the conversation. Because one only found out later that these people who were doing these interrogations were very well trained and knew how to ask questions. So even through the fourth, fifth question... he was able to work out whether a person is lying or not telling the whole truth. We used to be like that…we didn't understand these things, but then later one understood that the process of those questions which is…leads them to work towards the goal they need to get…or to that information. And actually, when you went to those meetings, even then when you were meeting at someone's apartment or something... you had some precautions, that you didn't go, for example, by a single connection of several, or... Well... they walked like that, they always walked disheveled, they always went disheveled... and again, when the meeting was over, they left gradually so that it was so inconspicuous. And in addition to how it all went, how it all had to be covered... did you also have any concerns that they might figure it out? As those bodies… Well, one didn't count on it that much, but... we knew that there was such information... that some were exposed at such meetings, and that they caused problems... but in Trenčín we were such a group and so we trusted each other that you are there for everything... that is, for the political situation as well as the religious one... you are open. So we trusted each other so much that during those meetings that we... there we experienced freedom. There was unfreedom outside, but we were free there! That is, there a person could say what he wanted and no one would offend him, we trusted each other. So, at the meeting, we experienced a freedom that perhaps others did not experience, because they were afraid of it."

"Actually, I want to go back to the situation with the Soviet Union... when you were at the passport control, how did it go... that they had any conversation with you? They didn't… they didn't have any conversation with me, just a passport check. All right... they took it... so of course I appealed, I appealed... about two weeks or so, I don't know... the answer came that the complaint was irrelevant, they didn't return it. So then I wrote a request to even higher authorities, the same thing. Well, nothing happened for a long time, until in eighty-eighth, I was called again for the passport, but there came someone... I don't remember anymore, he just mumbled the name, some major from the state security in civilian clothes and started: "That you had a passport taken..." Yes, he was. "Well, you can ask for a second one..." And I say: "Well, that one is still valid..." "It's only been a few months, ask for another one." And the chief who was in Trenčín... that there are still some... "And did you appeal?" "I filed an appeal..." Well, that's fine... "And you also filed a higher appeal?" Well, he pokes, pokes, that there are no longer any problems.... so get another one. "Comrade Chief, will you be helpful in arranging another passport?" Well, yes, yes... Well, so that it doesn't look like I just want a passport, I didn't go until about a month later to apply for a passport. I'll come to the passport office... "Your belt was taken away..." clerk. I say yes... but they said that I should get a new one... that Comrade Chief said that he would be helpful in this. Well, but he's not here. Well… then give me his number so that I can contact him. Okay, she gave me his number, I called him the next day. I say: "Comrade chief, we met then and there, you said that you would be helpful in processing the passport, but your clerk..." Well, but that..." Well, when can I ask for the passport..." Well , just ask if something can be done about it. Oh well. Well, my wife at that time... my wife and I applied together, so my wife received a passport pick-up, I received nothing. So the wife went... she took the passport and now... you always had to go to get the passport in person... "Take your husband's passport too, he already has it ready." So I didn't even have to go and get it."

"And actually after that wedding... You were also born in 1953? Yes… December 17th. And actually, what did the father do professionally? Well, when my father finished school, actually... at that time, a hydroelectric power plant was being built in Madunice. So, because he had an industrial degree and was so clever, skilled... and had organizational skills, he was hired at the hydroelectric plant in Madunice and worked as a foreman there... about 50 people, he mentioned that he was in charge. And you will do there, you there… and well, he checked. Well... and one day a comrade called him and said: "Comrade Dubovan... this comrade said this and that... will you confirm it for us?" And the father says: "I'm sorry, but how can I confirm this to you, when I wasn't there, I didn't hear it." …. "Well, stop by my place in the morning and think about it..." The next morning the father came: "I'm sorry, Comrade Director, but I didn't hear it, I can't confirm it." Well, he got a bag, a hand drill and went to work as a label maker. And the salary went to almost nothing and he was demoted from that functionary. So, when a person stood up honestly and was not willing to testify, it ended up like this, well... And then he was in that worker's position for a longer period of time, wasn't he? Then he managed to get a job at an apprenticeship in Nové Mesto... they needed a teacher there. So he taught there... well, and there he also had quite good salary conditions... quite good... but they were not exclusive. They were able to make ends meet even with their mother... I was already there with them. Well, and in between, father had to go to the military. He was in the military for half a year or so…he got a blue card because he had stomach ulcers, so he was discharged. Well... but then he also had... those older teachers, teachers... they didn't like such young people who were popular in the collective. Well, they tried... and mom was very pretty... so all kinds of hints, whatever. So they tried to eliminate crosses in schools and it didn't seem to them that it was done consistently, so he was thrown out of there too."

"... I don't know on which floor there was one apartment, a three-room apartment... there were five of us, five students, for an affordable price... and we were accommodated... as far as I know, there were two economists, one builder and two of us electrical technicians. That's how we understood each other, and you can sense who has what mindset. The two that were there were such good guys, excellent... but they didn't have that kind of mindset... religious feeling... I knew one of them, Ondrej, but that one economist, he was from Bratislava... and so I asked: " Peter, please, there is no such thing... such, such, such a religion, or such a ring... I didn't know if there was or not. He says he will ask. He asked... and that some young people are going on a trip to the Tatras during the summer, if I want to go with them. I say ok... I'll go. So I didn't know either... so it's also such a religious group... We went to Toporec... but before that I met, Peter introduced me, to a retired priest, Jozef Broučák, whose consent was revoked due to the fact that he had inappropriate mode notes. But then his consent was withdrawn and he could not work in the pastorate. Well, he performed such a spiritual activity as a retired priest. So there we were... we got to Toporec. We were staying with Michal Zamkovský, his parents. About fifteen... there were fifteen of us... girls were in one room and we boys were in another room. So we had a chance. Jozef celebrated mass for us... and he was such an enthusiastic person, that a priest with whom one could talk normally, that one did not have to just watch how he prays... That he talks like a person... so they could also complain, talk, and explain. So I was very impressed with that. Well, and during these meetings, something from the scriptures was also read and then those who were there tried to understand how we understood it... what a word like that, how it appealed to me. So I was a beginner… but it appealed to me. Well, after the holidays, when we came back… Excuse me, when was it, between first and second year? Yes, that was about seventy-five. Well, probably... at the end of the second, between the second and third. So there... well, and then I already talked to the priest... "You know what, Jozef, I'd be interested..." It was interesting that those priests were willing to have such a more intimate relationship... to meet each other. That he was not much older, but the man had so much more confidence. So I say that: "Josef, I would perhaps educate myself more spiritually in this way, not just by reading something in the Catholic newspaper..." He says that..." Wait, I'll see if I can find something for you." Well, and then he introduced me to Vladimír Jukl, and he was in charge of university youth... that is, they grouped the same... firstly electrical technicians, then from the faculties of philosophy and doctors as well. So everyone had their own meetings, with such a spiritual program."

"So, well... there was such a more relaxed atmosphere at school. They tried... or at least some had men who were employed in the eastern military district, so... and that eastern military district, around Kodaj... actually tried to be on Dubček's side. And that kind of relaxation... the kids, democracy and such transferred that to us. So that's when we talked about things like that. Well, and after the sixty-eighth, it suddenly started to talk completely differently, before we could do that. And then suddenly... you can't do this, you can't do this... well, we were so disappointed. That... we were young boys willing to join any good work. Well, and in the sixty-eighth, I think they already arrived on the twenty-first, second, third... which was the party secretary Ivan Minárik, so he says: "Well, boys, it would be good to put the names of the streets, bells... down, so they can't find their way around." Well, of course... that was a job that we knew how to do very quickly and easily. And didn't you have any concerns that there might be a clash? Because they actually passed through Trenčín. Yes. Not only did they pass through Trenčín, but there was also the Eastern Slovak ring road, and there was a tank at every corner. And during the night, from the 20th to the 21st, planes and helicopters arrived all night... transporting military equipment to the Island in Trenčín. So there, when we saw them walking... I say, they won't go home so quickly. Well, we were not wrong! They dragged there from the east... to the headquarters... they had such a communication cable, so they guarded there. And I don't know... someone wanted to cross him or something... and immediately... they shot him in the leg... it was an elderly gentleman. But the kids also went to the Russian soldiers, and they were willing to give gas for cigarettes... for cigarettes... and so on. Well then…”

"I would also ask about the period after 1948 and the rise of the communists... if they somehow perceived this in Bardejov and the surrounding area... because it was simply far from the center of events in Prague... if they somehow perceived the changes there. Well, they were afraid of what would happen... because they knew the way the Russian soldiers behaved... who were passing through here. They didn't have a good experience. So they were afraid... even from the information that was already there... that communism would bring. Their situation did not improve... after their marriage, they transported some gifts... such as they had from Bardejov, to Madunice... near... there near the Tatras, or near Svit... the train had an accident, some rock came loose, a broken wagon, of course everything they were transporting , furniture... broken. They were left without everything. So... they had to fight hard through that life in order to work up to some, such a standard. So that... like a standard family, they could live together. They also lived in a sublet from the beginning. I would now switch to my father's family, i.e. to... Yes. I would ask about your grandparents, his parents... what kind of family did they come from, what did they do, work-wise... Well, grandfather Rudolph came from an agricultural family, from a peasant family... he came from Domaniži. The grandmother was a local from Madunice, she also came from a peasant family. Grandfather, he fought... also in the First World War... he was even in the legions in Russia. From there, when they were captured and exchanged... he went to Kragujevats. And the grandfather was such a revolutionary... and he says: "If I lived in the barracks, but the exercise was outside... I would also be among the 44 who were shot." Because grandfather... had the courage to defend his beliefs and demand justice and his rights, well. So he worked as a grain buyer on the railway during the Slovak state. And I know that my grandfather told me: "Well, when grain was imported from Russia in the forty-seventh, it was the third ear of corn and among the grain, there were rifles and weapons... it was already February." Well, he mentioned more that he was also in Russia as... and he says: "A Russian ordinary person, that's a good person... they were able to take off my fur coat when I was cold... even if I was freezing, he was able to give me a fur coat, just to I was fine... because I'm a foreigner and that needs to be taken care of." Well, so in this way... grandfather was on the railway and saw what was happening around... well, so I also asked about Lenin and so on... there was information other than what we were taught in school about Lenin, how he died and so on, here we will not discuss. Well, what did he tell you? Grandfather said about Lenin: "You know what, that Lenin died of syphilis." And the father tells him: "Grandpa, don't talk to him like that, because they are still imprisoning you." So I put one ear in, the other out... but my grandfather told me that it was a tradition, and that this information is probably true... that it was also talked about among ordinary Russian people. So I would also return to the First World War, about how your grandfather Rudolf fought... Yes. Did he somehow tell you about what he experienced during that war? Well, he never really wanted to talk about these things, they just always provoked him... because grandpa, you liked to go to the pub to talk with guys, well. So they always talked there. And now: "Rudolf, tell me how it was in Russia!" Well, grandfather said it once, he said it once... and he was already in the bass."

„Previously, even in the 80s, I had the trust of Jukl and Silva Krčméry, so they had contacts with foreign countries and it was possible to import literature in large quantities, whoever was willing to accept it. Since I lived with my parents in the family house, I agreed with my parents that if they had any reservations about the fact that some literature was brought to us. Well, that father was such a devoted warrior, so of course. That's how the link always came, they announced - mostly from Germany – that if they could and when we would meet. They came, the date was agreed, the car arrived, it was unloaded, I got into the car from ten such bags full of books. We had a garage, so in the garage, in the pit, which used to be done. That's how it worked there. I had a well-known organist Martin Zanovit from the community in Trenčín, I came to see him, we divided the books into the 25 areas. We tried to give it to everyone, then it had to be quickly distributed so that it wouldn't stay in one place for a long time, in case it was accidentally revealed, if they raided. So it's clear that we would go to prison.“ 00:40:15 – 00:41:52 – Karol helped import banned literature, hiding it in his parents' house

„Meanwhile, I also got to know Silva Krčméry, so I started going to such a community of current needs, then later it turned out that they were Fatimas. There were those who were collaborators, arranging the distribution of literature, or the typing or distribution of literature and the creation of communities within Slovakia. There were several of them. There was also a regional community here in Trenčín. There were 25 areas. Then we were assigned the area of Trenčín. Vladko Jukl was assigned the area of Trenčín and I was his minister, his helper. At that time, no one knew that he was a priest. Since I also had such short three-year vows at that time, I knew who was a priest and who was studying. I had some basics of that study. But then later I saw that my path was probably different, so they also accepted my decision, so of course I don't have to continue.“ 00:35:46 – 00:37:08 – Karol Dubovan helped form the community of Fatima in Trenčín, ministered to Vladimír Jukl

„Sometimes, when a person stayed there for Saturday and Sunday, I also went to church with my classmate Peter Savar. But my father told me that when he was in Bratislava, he went to the industrial school, so even then there were groups at the parsonages who could go to religion. I asked that Peter if he happened to know something that I would be interested in learning about these issues, because he knew little from a young age. He said he would think about it and about a week later he told me that he knew something like that would happen. So he first introduced me to a priest in production whose approval was revoked by the state, Jožko Mrovčák, so I started meeting and talking with him more regularly. He started to draw me into these questions a little bit.“ 00:29:47 – 00:30:54 – First contacts with the secret church at university